More on Assange

Security, malware, viri--you've got to keep your eyes open

Postby JohnT » 12/29/10, 5:58 am

bob wrote:Your crack is not well taken, John. It hardly fits the narrative.

Must every conversation turn into a political, right vs. left, mud sling? Don, must you get all fuckin hyper-leftist? Red, must you take the bait? Can't we stay on a reasonable track?

I blame everyone except myself! And now, I'm turning on Robot Chicken....
I believed at the time the narrative was about transparency and the the ultimate good it has for all......I wanted to point...by my so-called crack out that that is not always true as I and Red have been trying to say throughout this dialog. :wink:
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Postby Don_U » 12/29/10, 11:27 am

@Red
"But people like you sees one mistake happen in our military and they're all evil blood thirsty murders is that it?"
Don't twist my words. I spent 5 years in the sand. Professional military people don't laugh at kills. I took it very seriously. I have blood on my hands I can't wash off.

@John
Transparency, and then reform changed the eastern block countries during the Regan years. Even China has been changed by information transparency. How else could they do business. People die everyday for the dissemination of information, John. So people die to be free so that people know, not a concept that is wasted on Americans.

@Bob
Why must the idea of a murder brand me a leftist? Were the people who presided over Nuremberg leftist? How about the trial of Slobodan Milosevic?
How many do you have to kill before it is a war crime? Just asking. Was the example to harsh? Perhaps something more baby soft? That video changed how we engage the enemy. What they did was murder. Sorry if I was subjective and objective. BTW Juan Williams and I are having lunch later :-)
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Postby JohnT » 12/29/10, 1:05 pm

Don_U wrote:@John
Transparency, and then reform changed the eastern block countries during the Regan years.
Even China has been changed by information transparency. How else could they do business. People die everyday for the dissemination of information, John. So people die to be free so that people know, not a concept that is wasted on Americans.
No 70 years of living under Communist rule did and it still hasn't changed...in name only. Live here before you start citing second-third hand information. That's not transparency....it's boot-grinding.
@blood on your hands...I spent two tours in "Nam" and I never dig up history....contrary to Churchill we will repeat it. Keep it to yourself.

BTW Valeria Podrova and I are having Blinnis later.
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Postby bob » 12/29/10, 5:11 pm

You've all convinced me of your arguments in the sense that I recognize now these are all matters of proximity and degree. There is some truth in all these posts.

I just read the following post on /., where a similar argument is going on:


As usual, the sensible view is somewhere in the middle. Yes, the details of nuclear shipments and defense deployments need to be secret. No, diplomatic insults DO NOT need to be secret.

Governments the world over keep far, far too many secrets. Most of them are designed merely to avoid embarrassment and/or recriminations and/or removal from power, or to further the interests of corporate elites and other power-mongers. These secrets ought to be revealed expeditiously, repeatedly, and mercilessly until the evil they support comes crashing down.


http://news.slashdot.org/story/10/12/29 ... y?from=rss

Now I don't feel like arguing anymore, but the rest of you, carry on!
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Postby Don_U » 12/29/10, 5:32 pm

@Bob good arbitration

@John Blinnis :lol: Make mine a Tsingtao. Have friends in the Ukraine.

Same boot grind here we are just on the other side...oh of the dateline I mean. :idea:
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Postby bob » 12/29/10, 6:34 pm

Not trying to arbitrate, just reach something recognizable as a reasonable position. We've heard from pennsylvania, Ukraine, st Louis and Sydney on this matter. But Perth has been quiet for awhile. Nothing to add from the far east, Gerry?
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Postby Gerry » 12/29/10, 8:22 pm

bob wrote:Not trying to arbitrate, just reach something recognizable as a reasonable position. We've heard from pennsylvania, Ukraine, st Louis and Sydney on this matter. But Perth has been quiet for awhile. Nothing to add from the far east, Gerry?


Must every conversation turn into a political, right vs. left, mud sling? Don, must you get all fuckin hyper-leftist? Red, must you take the bait? Can't we stay on a reasonable track?

I blame everyone except myself! And now, I'm turning on Robot Chicken....
Well you had me until the end. What did I say? I'm neither left nor right, I'm Libertarian and so I will side with whomever I believe is correct. As a Libertarian I believe this world is currently run in an insane manner and I am for radical change of almost everything, but am happy to settle for progress in the right direction.

I'll put it this way... those arguing that WikiLeaks (regularly confused with Assange) should not be releasing the documents do have a point that the jobs of certain goverment officials will become more difficult and there are other possible side effects.

However while they have a point, they should also realise that it's simply a fact that what they are doing is arguing for more ignorance of reality and there is no getting around that. Somebody has information about the real world that you don't know, if you argue that they shouldn't release this information then you are saying that you will be happy being ignorant if it keeps everybody else ignorant.

On one hand you guys are making arguments about how the world should work, but on the other you are saying you don't want to be informed about the world. Cognitive dissonance much? How can you expect to be taken seriously on a topic you are protesting to remain ignorant of? Do you do this in any other part of your life?
I answer rhetorical questions for my own enjoyment.
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Postby RedRage » 12/29/10, 8:44 pm

It is what you typed Don but I may have taken it the wrong way. Problem with message boards is that the whole message doesn't always come through, if so i apologize.

Don, Like i said I didn't watch the video, but since it wasn't argued i assume my assumption on the video was correct. I can agree with you that those people involved should be punished to the full extent of international law.

And believe it or not.. i do semi-understand your want for Transparent information. I would like to know everything that's going on as well. I want to know who killed JFK, when and where my friends over seas are, how many licks does it take to get to the center of a tootsie pop. But in all reality it is not practical or safe.

There are things that can and should be put out there right away (even if people like me don't care).

there are things that should be kept secret like troop movements, attack and defense plans, etc. until they are no longer relevant.

There are things that should be investigated before the public can damn people for something they MAY have did like the people in the video (although it sounds like its pretty obvious) but there maybe more going on more people involved that need to be caught before they can "get away". Maybe it is some grand conspiracy but we may not ever know if people have time to cover their tracks.


THANK YOU GERRY FOR SAYING IT

... those arguing that WikiLeaks (regularly confused with Assange)


^ that was where i was thinking when i first made a post in this thread... then it got side tracked somewhere.

And buy the way guys. I think i said it before at some point.. if i haven't... Thank you for your service I appreciate it
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Postby bob » 12/29/10, 9:51 pm

Thank you for your service I appreciate it


I'll add my thanks there too.
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Postby Don_U » 12/30/10, 2:28 am

Hard for me to deal with it sometimes. At the end of the video the gunship crew is laughing because the Bradley ran over a dead body and the gunner is just hoping someone will pickup a weapon so that they can fire.

But if you are a military man don't you think the enemy would hide from .30 cal weapons fire? That is common sense. They felt safe otherwise plain sight would not be an option for them.

This country needs to stop laughing off its mistakes.
If transparency makes people accountable so those mistakes are not made so be it. But I get it John, that did not work in 'nam what makes me think it will work here? Point taken. I just want to think things get better.
It never changes.

@Red it's cool, no problem man:)

to all you are welcome
Last edited by Don_U on 12/30/10, 2:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby bob » 12/30/10, 2:32 am

that did not work in 'nam


Yes it did. The Pentagon Papers revealed oil interests and other theretofore unknown facts about US involvement, and aggravated our discontent with the war.
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Postby Don_U » 12/30/10, 3:56 am

I never look back, dahling, it distracts from the now -Edna Mode
Beware of men in white vans at the freeway off ramps selling discount America. It is defective,
contains lead, and is not made here.
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Postby JohnT » 12/30/10, 11:46 am

Don_U wrote:
@John Blinnis :lol: Make mine a Tsingtao. Have friends in the Ukraine.
Tsingtao is Chinese beer.....not Ukraine....Blinnis are a thin pancake......not beer.

@Bob
I live in Russia....Vladivostok.....Ukraine is not Russia.

Transparency at work :roll:
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Postby JohnT » 12/30/10, 11:55 am

bob wrote: The Pentagon Papers revealed oil interests and other theretofore unknown facts about US involvement, and aggravated our discontent with the war.
Archaic word...very surprising.
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Postby Don_U » 12/30/10, 1:36 pm

"Tsingtao is Chinese beer" no shit John, I guess inference is lost on you. As for not understanding what a Blinnis is
I thought you misspelled "Bellini" like you misspelled
the actresses name.

Don't use 'national security' bullshit on me.
For you this is not just about this incident. This is about the value of you personally having secrets or being covert and the value of the information that is secret.
From the transcript: you even advised me to "keep it to yourself"

So while I am here let me point out the obvious:

You are using the Internet to post your snide remarks.
hmmmm I grew up in the 60's when a telephone call was next to impossible. Now you can use the internet so information transparency is ineffective, right? Not to mention the tourist biz you are in. Do you think that that would have been possible 30 years ago?

What about Perestroika dude?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perestroika

Oh and about the Ukraine
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... et_Ukraine
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