Is the human brain computational?

Hack your OS, customize your GUI, announce great software, and configure, configure, configure...
bob
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
Posts: 7565
Joined: 12/03/01, 12:00 am
Location: St. Louis
Contact:

Post by bob » 04/10/11, 8:29 pm

Wait a minute... Maybe we shouldn't confuse human nature and intelligence. No joke intended. Many of the things we do as a result of our nature are not really "intelligent" in that they do not express the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations. In fact, humans are quite often "unreasonable."
WYSIWTF

Dark Shadow
Senior Member (Entitled To Root Beer)
Senior Member (Entitled To Root Beer)
Posts: 860
Joined: 12/09/01, 12:00 am
Contact:

Post by Dark Shadow » 04/10/11, 8:31 pm

bob wrote:Wait a minute... Maybe we shouldn't confuse human nature and intelligence. No joke intended. Many of the things we do as a result of our nature are not really "intelligent" in that they do not express the ability to learn or understand or to deal with new or trying situations. In fact, humans are quite often "unreasonable."
Humans have ego which is what you are talking about. This shouldn't be confused with will, the drive and desire to become better and improve oneself. Will is required for any true AI, rather than just advanced programming that makes it better or faster than humans within a very specific field.

bob
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
Posts: 7565
Joined: 12/03/01, 12:00 am
Location: St. Louis
Contact:

Post by bob » 04/10/11, 9:09 pm

the drive and desire to become better and improve oneself
Sure you're not talking about the drive to reproduce yourself? That can screw reasoning all to hell...
WYSIWTF

Dark Shadow
Senior Member (Entitled To Root Beer)
Senior Member (Entitled To Root Beer)
Posts: 860
Joined: 12/09/01, 12:00 am
Contact:

Post by Dark Shadow » 04/10/11, 9:10 pm

bob wrote:
the drive and desire to become better and improve oneself
Sure you're not talking about the drive to reproduce yourself? That can screw reasoning all to hell...
So to speak. ;)

bob
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
Posts: 7565
Joined: 12/03/01, 12:00 am
Location: St. Louis
Contact:

Post by bob » 04/10/11, 9:33 pm

Think about what "will" is, what it represents in terms of goals and ambitions. Where it leads... I would posit that every positive human drive (or animal drive) ultimately is intended to lead toward reproduction. Every action designed to put us one up on the evolutionary competition.

We are a bunch of minglers mingling to produce more minglers.

I say every "positive" drive because I dont know how to fit suicide into this picture. Any ideas?
WYSIWTF

Gerry
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
Posts: 5727
Joined: 12/04/01, 12:00 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Post by Gerry » 04/11/11, 2:42 pm

bob wrote:Think about what "will" is, what it represents in terms of goals and ambitions. Where it leads... I would posit that every positive human drive (or animal drive) ultimately is intended to lead toward reproduction. Every action designed to put us one up on the evolutionary competition.

We are a bunch of minglers mingling to produce more minglers.

I say every "positive" drive because I dont know how to fit suicide into this picture. Any ideas?
I disagree. You go to the bakery and see a healthy bread roll next to a jam donut, but you choose the jam donut. I think it's pretty obvious that eating healthy roll has more chance of getting you laid in more instances than that tasty jam donut, however reproduction or even just sex isn't your main goal in that decision, your goal is a feeling of happiness. I think it is that same goal of happiness that leads people towards sex and eventually reproduction (at a time when they feel kids would make them happy [if planned]).

I've long though about AI and I'm with Dark in thinking that you have to create that want in any AI before it will work. However I think you will find that my happiness theory works for Dark's "drive and desire to become better and improve oneself".

Humans tend to build their own idea for what makes them happy based on their life up to any particular point (or at least it seems that way to me) although I'm not sure this is essential to the development of AI. Perhaps you could give an AI a happiness definition.

However I suspect another barrier to AI is the need for a complex world in which the AI has all the things available to it that it needs in order to grow while striving to achieve it's goals.

ps. I should mention that the reverse goal is also true. Avoidance of sadness. (sadness again being unique to the person)
I answer rhetorical questions for my own enjoyment.

bob
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
Posts: 7565
Joined: 12/03/01, 12:00 am
Location: St. Louis
Contact:

Post by bob » 04/11/11, 3:01 pm

I can see having a sweet tooth, or to generalize, having "happiness", as being a selective trait. (Do I need to define that?) Muscle is not everything, after all...
I'm with Dark in thinking that you have to create that want in any AI before it will work.
I agree that AI must have a driving force, curiosity might do it, or better, competitive ambition (so the best way to get AI to work harder is to have 2 AI's, bred to compete)
WYSIWTF

Dark Shadow
Senior Member (Entitled To Root Beer)
Senior Member (Entitled To Root Beer)
Posts: 860
Joined: 12/09/01, 12:00 am
Contact:

Post by Dark Shadow » 04/11/11, 6:25 pm

bob wrote:I can see having a sweet tooth, or to generalize, having "happiness", as being a selective trait. (Do I need to define that?) Muscle is not everything, after all...
I'm with Dark in thinking that you have to create that want in any AI before it will work.
I agree that AI must have a driving force, curiosity might do it, or better, competitive ambition (so the best way to get AI to work harder is to have 2 AI's, bred to compete)
Bob, you are going to create an AI that murders another AI at the first opportunity, and then realizes that murder is an effective tool to get what it wants... you will create Skynet 100 years before its time.

bob
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
Posts: 7565
Joined: 12/03/01, 12:00 am
Location: St. Louis
Contact:

Post by bob » 04/11/11, 7:32 pm

you are going to create an AI that murders another AI

Turing test be damned -- we've found a better way to test AI
WYSIWTF

Gerry
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
Posts: 5727
Joined: 12/04/01, 12:00 am
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Contact:

Post by Gerry » 04/12/11, 5:12 pm

bob wrote:I can see having a sweet tooth, or to generalize, having "happiness", as being a selective trait. (Do I need to define that?) Muscle is not everything, after all...
I know people for which having a sweet tooth isn't a selective trait and has instead lead them to a lonely life. They choose the donut because it looks colorful and tasty and they believe it will make them happy if only for a moment.

I find it hard to believe that even on a subconscious level they could be equating their sweet tooth that is leading them to obesity with a desired trait by others of the opposite sex.

I could be wrong, but it seems like your stretching to make the evidence fit your hypothesis instead of making your hypothesis based on the evidence.
I answer rhetorical questions for my own enjoyment.

bob
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
BIG GIANT HEAD I Get Free Beer
Posts: 7565
Joined: 12/03/01, 12:00 am
Location: St. Louis
Contact:

Post by bob » 04/12/11, 5:27 pm

I could be wrong, but it seems like your stretching to make the evidence fit your hypothesis instead of making your hypothesis based on the evidence.
I don't think so, but then, being contrarian may be a selective trait as well.
WYSIWTF

Don_U
Senior Member I Get Free Beer
Senior Member I Get Free Beer
Posts: 766
Joined: 08/03/09, 10:33 am
Location: Grand Rapids Mi.
Contact:

Post by Don_U » 04/13/11, 3:38 pm

Would be hard to build an AI. Based on what most humans consider a conscious aware state. We are about small group, closed loop thought. Folk models are pervasive.

Best bet you have is to ditch the imperative concepts above and focus on low level declarative intelligence.

Beyond that we are nothing more than high level thinkers. Not even close to understanding what surrounds us. How do we at our best effort build something that is little more than functional?
I never look back, dahling, it distracts from the now -Edna Mode
Beware of men in white vans at the freeway off ramps selling discount America. It is defective,
contains lead, and is not made here.
Robotic Undertones

Post Reply