Is the human brain computational?

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Is the human brain computational?

Postby bob » 09/01/09, 4:28 pm

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Re: Is the human brain computational?

Postby Gerry » 09/02/09, 3:39 pm

bob wrote:Football requires a certain kind of intelligence. Someone like David Beckham can look at the movement of the players, predict where the ball is likely to go and put himself in the right place. Soccer robots can move quickly, punch the ball hard and get it accurately into the net, but they cannot look at the pattern of the game and guess where the ball is going to end up.


Ummm what?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bfdHY26E2jc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O8kKKXSgA4s
http://www.paintballsentry.com/multimedia.aspx

Looks like path prediction and reaction to me.

I know when I play quake the bot aims where I'm going and not where I am and I've seen other software that predict the path of real life objects.
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Postby Don_U » 09/02/09, 10:36 pm

Football requires a certain kind of intelligence. Someone like David Beckham can look at the movement of the players, predict where the ball is likely to go and put himself in the right place. Soccer robots can move quickly, punch the ball hard and get it accurately into the net, but they cannot look at the pattern of the game and guess where the ball is going to end up.


I have played a lot of tennis and it takes a great deal of practice to tweak your game to a "court sense" level. It is instinctive.
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Postby bob » 09/03/09, 2:16 am

Gerry, I think the article's example may be too simple -- "pattern of the game" could -in real terms- mean significantly more than the extropolated current path of the ball or players, but rather "where the ball will wind up" as a result of the play, game, or season strategy.

Don and Gerry -- I am not sure what I think about this. "Computational" seems to imply a series of yes/no or on/off steps, leading to a more complex conclusion. "Human Intelligence" seems to require something more fluid or complex from the beginning -- is the firing of neurons and the complex conclusions resulting just an on/off signal system? Or is it something more complex? For starters, would you even consider it binary (or ternary, octal, etc.), i.e., at base, expressible in simple mathematical terms.
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Postby Gerry » 09/03/09, 3:44 am

bob wrote:Gerry, I think by "pattern of the game" they mean significantly more than the extropolated current path of the ball or players, but rather "where the ball will wind up" as a result of the play, game, or season strategy.
Good point, I missed that.

bob wrote:Don and Gerry -- I am not sure what I think about this. "Computational" seems to imply a series of yes/no or on/off steps, leading to a more complex conclusion. "Human Intelligence" seems to require something more fluid or complex from the beginning -- is the firing of neurons and the complex conclusions resulting just an on/off signal system? Or is it something more complex? For starters, would you even consider it binary (or ternary, octal, etc.), i.e., at base, expressible in simple mathematical terms.


However, some very smart human things can be done in dumb ways by machines. Humans have a very limited memory, and so for us, chess is a difficult pattern-recognition problem that requires intelligence. A computer like Deep Blue wins by brute force, searching quickly through the outcomes of millions of moves. It is like arm-wrestling with a mechanical digger.
Well as far as I was aware this is how many grand masters play, my memorising a LOT of great moves from a lot of great games and then replaying them at the right time. If something is currently not well understood or able to be done then a lot of people take the attitude that it is impossible for us to understand or do. Some people he spoke to asked him "Do you think mind is supernatural?". I would ask him the same.

He's right that AI is about fooling the observer into believing the computer is intelligent. But once you actually able to fool the smartest people, then who is to say that we as humans are not simply doing the same thing to one another? But it's a long way off, we've been saying we are close for more than 60 years.
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Postby Don_U » 09/03/09, 9:06 am

We can not perceive what we rake for granted day after day with respect to cognitive process. It is far to nuanced. In other words we are too close to the situation to create something more than a mimic or pattern.

The larger question is this. Do we begin to let these program models set the standard or pattern our intelligence. It is why I do not play electronic games. They dumb down cognitive ability.

I see it in how we program everyday.
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Postby Gerry » 09/03/09, 2:15 pm

Don_U wrote:It is why I do not play electronic games. They dumb down cognitive ability.
Agreed! The people who play video games the most (usually going by the title of "geeks") are certainly the group in our society most lacking in cognitive ability.
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Postby bob » 09/03/09, 4:34 pm

this is how many grand masters play, my memorising a LOT of great moves from a lot of great games and then replaying them at the right time



Except that, instead of merely brute force, the grand master is taking into consideration the mood of the opponent, his past patterns of play, the audience reaction, what occurred to him in the last game, etc.

I think I mentioned this before, but here it is: I had one of those Radio Shack chess computers at one time, and the thing used to beat the pants off me, EXCEPT that I found I could win by suddenly making a few irrational moves. Try it. Doesn't always work -- but the computer's "brute force" absolutely cannot predict the irrational, which is very human.
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Postby RedRage » 09/04/09, 12:45 am

Gerry wrote:
Don_U wrote:It is why I do not play electronic games. They dumb down cognitive ability.
Agreed! The people who play video games the most (usually going by the title of "geeks") are certainly the group in our society most lacking in cognitive ability.


you cannot lump all electronic games in to this group. In fact i find that most "geeks" have better thought processes than most... even though they tend to be socially awkward. but you'll have "idiots" in every clique.

I think I mentioned this before, but here it is: I had one of those Radio Shack chess computers at one time, and the thing used to beat the pants off me, EXCEPT that I found I could win by suddenly making a few irrational moves. Try it. Doesn't always work -- but the computer's "brute force" absolutely cannot predict the irrational, which is very human.


yeah some of the old chessmaster type games where the same way. When it knows what move or moves you should make and you make one it doesn't recognize it just doesn't know what to do. Because of this i always thought i was a pretty good chess player till i actually played a Rated Master, while he told me i played better than he expected... i was very wrong to think i had a chance
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Postby Don_U » 09/04/09, 2:54 am

The real xfactor is limbic portion of the brain close to the stem.

http://webspace.ship.edu/cgboer/limbicsystem.html

This controls the transmitters and receptors for chemicals in the brain
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Postby Don_U » 09/04/09, 3:00 am

Games reinforce pattern they may reinforce pattern ability but that decision making is simple compared
to what we never comprehend going on at lower level function. I other words do we actually understand all that goes on in the brain?

The limbic portion of the brain is like the bios for the brain.
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Postby bob » 09/04/09, 3:31 am

i always thought i was a pretty good chess player till i actually played a Rated Master


For a year I roomed with the then Kansas State Chess Champion -- I won maybe once out of a hundred games. I used to go with him to tournaments where he would play twenty other players at once. And he won most of those games. Humbling....
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Postby Gerry » 09/04/09, 7:08 am

Bob wrote:EXCEPT that I found I could win by suddenly making a few irrational moves.
Yep I was just speaking to a doc the other day who told me the very same thing, except apparently that was a bug that was fixed long ago. Perhaps the radio shack devises aren't using up to date software

RedRage wrote:you cannot lump all electronic games in to this group. In fact i find that most "geeks" have better thought processes than most... even though they tend to be socially awkward. but you'll have "idiots" in every clique.
Yes I wasn't being sincere Red, I was pointing out the obvious flaw in the argument. A trip to any big LAN/electronic gaming event and upon speaking to the people there it would become pretty obvious pretty fast that "cognitive ability" is definitely not their failing. Now if the case had been that excessive playing of video games generally leads to poor hygiene, well then I probably wouldn't disagree.

bob wrote:I used to go with him to tournaments where he would play twenty other players at once. And he won most of those games. Humbling....
Like this? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=evZmpsl3jI0
hehehe, just kiddin ;)
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Postby Don_U » 09/04/09, 9:37 am

Games we derive are pattern to the brain it is simple cognitive ability. Unless of course your ego gives you the argument that it can be otherwise. :lol: Your 'id' is a game your brain plays everyday. Your own personal Matrix. Or private
Idaho :lol:

And that is the point. You are all considering higher level function. There is function in the brain that happens that we do not even perceive that directly influences our day to day and minute to minute.

Want get to the next level of gaming?

From Stanford University.

"Game theory is the study of the ways in which strategic interactions among rational players produce outcomes with respect to the preferences (or utilities) of those players, none of which might have been intended by any of them."

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/game-theory/

My guess is there is not many geeks at lan parties thinking this way.

@Bob You mentioned mathematical process related to brain function again I think this is a higher level function that is variable depending on the balance of transmitters (chemicals) and receptors in the limbic system with respect to time. The balance of such things as Serotonin can play a huge role in the outcome of intelligence.

http://www.nativeremedies.com/articles/ ... iency.html

Now take into consideration that we have many more chemicals that come into play relative to themselves and the interaction they have with each other. Thay directly influence every decision we make.

Now that's one complex game. 8)

So how do create <i>ai</i> that does anything else but follow higher level patterns? While we are self aware it only goes so far. Unless your ego tells you different :idea:
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Postby Dark Shadow » 04/10/11, 7:29 pm

No matter how complex of an AI you develop, you will still not truely have an AI in the broad terms of AI. The AI simply learns a set pattern of what it is programmed to learn, within the confines of that programming. To have true AI, you need will+self rewriteable code. Without will, the AI doesn't desire to become any more than the sum of its programming, and without self programming, it can't teach itself anything new.

Humans have both and more, so let's be careful with throwing around the word AI as true AI is probably hundreds of years away.
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