Libertarianism

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bob
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Libertarianism

Post by bob » 01/01/11, 6:46 pm

Moved stuff here from another thread to give it a fresh on-topic start

quote: Originally posted by Gerry:
I'm Libertarian and so I will side with whomever I believe is correct.

quote: Originally posted by Bob:
We should talk about Libertarianism, sometime, Gerry.
quote: Originally posted by Gerry:
Yeah however I'm a noob on the subject, I just like what is said by those who are not. I can however give you a fantastic Harvard video to watch on the subject.

Sure, I'll watch the tape... beware of Libertarians talking about Libertarianism, though. They tend to downplay the more extreme goals of the movement. It all sounds groovy and great, until you realize, there is no protection for the weak against the strong, the poor against the rich... I think if you followed their philosophy to its logical political end, you end up with warlordism. Their goal is to dismantle government because (they say) it encroaches on individual freedom. But dismantling government takes away the governmental protections that prevent individuals from encroaching on the freedom of others. The strong win. Always. It's law of the jungle.

We have some self-avowed Libertarians in government here (ever hear of Rand Paul, or his father, Ron Paul), but, self-avowed or not, I would say there's very little difference between what is called "conservatism" here, and Libertarianism, especially when conservatism is brought to its far right wing extremes. In fact, the far right wing of the Republican Party is often called the Libertarian wing.

Have you read Atlas Shrugged? It is one of the defining works of the Libertarian movement.
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Post by RedRage » 01/02/11, 1:20 am

if that video is online somewhere if you can shoot it to me as well that would be great.

Don't forget to protect the rich from the poor, you may down play that but look at all the stupid law suits out there.

the problem with these party systems is you get a lot of people who refuse to listen to another point of view because it says in the party handbook that the other side is wrong.

lucky for us we do have a few leaders in our government at least willing to hear the other points of view.

I think you might be overstating saying Libertarianism is akin to warlordism. When i think of warlord i think of people like Sadaam who used violence and fear to rule. I think what you're looking for is dictatorship? I doubt it would be much different if the extreme left or right had their way ;-)

rest of this post is me playing with the emoticons cause well i want too!

aaa ;:evil: ;:cry: ;:( ;:o :?: :P :gun: :slice: b-= ;:oops: ;:-) :wink: ;:mad: ;8) :r +> ccc ---= --= ;:cry: ;:o :idea: :shock: ;:lol: aaa

bob
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Post by bob » 01/02/11, 3:51 am

I think you might be overstating saying Libertarianism is akin to warlordism

Maybe. I think many who espouse Libertarianism now would disavow it when they see where it may lead. I think it points in that direction.

Generally, you see the rise of a warlord when a strong man is able to take all the liberties he wants, and other individuals and government are so weak they cannot protect others from the strong man.

Certainly Libertarians wish to weaken government, and the volunteerism they propose to keep order in lieu of government seems to me like a fantasy, given a strong willed individual. Yes, like Saddam.
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Post by Don_U » 01/03/11, 8:20 am

Don't forget to protect the rich from the poor, you may down play that but look at all the stupid law suits out there.
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Post by Gerry » 01/03/11, 7:40 pm

Here is the video: http://www.justiceharvard.org/index.php ... &Itemid=10

It does help if you have watched the previous videos, however it's not necessary. Also this isn't really pro-libertarian, more just putting it out there for debate.

@Bob: So let me see if I'm understanding your position before I start debating anything... You seem like you are saying Libertarianism is bad because while in a Libertarian society it might work, if somebody from outside that society invades they will be able to conquer all in this society because they have weakened their government to the point where that society is defenceless. Am I understanding your point? Please don't revise your point unless it's absolutely necessary, I'm just asking for clarification of it.
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Post by bob » 01/03/11, 9:09 pm

No--I'm saying Libertarianism is bad because it will devolve into the law of the jungle.

There are many different flavors of libertarianism, but what they seem to have in common is that the role of government should be minimal. My Libertarian friends wish, for example, to take government out of building roads, insisting that a private enterprise toll-road is better and more efficient than a government road built from tax monies. They want to end the public school systen-saying that private schools can take the place of free education. When I ask how poor people will become educated, they say a system of volunteers (run by churches) will spring up. They say the police function should be privatized, or performed by volunteer vigilantes.

The only legitimate governmental function, they say, is national defense.

Now you may say the Libertarians I know are just nutty. Nope--they're the real thing, fairly high up in the Missouri branch of the Libertarian Party. In fact, some years ago I was asked by a person influential in the party to run for a high office in Missouri on the Libertarian ticket. So I know these guys from long experience, and maybe even share some of their ideas, or did at one time.

I have come to the conclusion they really want to simply dismantle the government. Though they say they are not anarchists, and would provide minimal government for national defense (which is pretty inconsistent-why not privatized armies, etc?)

In such a system, without the government to protect the weak and the poor, the strong and wealthy will always get their way. That's why I say the Libertarian system will lead to warlordism, when you have a strong man exercising his will because no one else is stronger. (It doesn't make a difference whether it's a single strong man, or a strong group--the result's the same.) There is no safety in law anymore because the government either no longer exists, or has been put into the hands of those who can call the shots because they can pay.

As for your statement about "someone from outside invading." That's now what I'm saying. It's not someone from outside. It's those individuals that in the face of weak government can have their own way, no matter the cost to others. The basic conflict is this: Libertarians say government encroaches on their rights. I say individuals will encroach on other individuals' rights without governmental protection.

Want to see Libertarianism at work? Look at Somolia, and Mexico's getting there too with the police and government owned by the drug lords.
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Post by Don_U » 01/04/11, 7:51 am

Don't want to take the fun out of this but chew on this:

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/libertarianism/
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Post by RedRage » 01/04/11, 7:21 pm

http://www.faqs.org/faqs/libertarian/faq/

far from perfect but doesn't sound like the ideals in the FAQ are not all that bad. There seem to be more than a few different flavors though some more extreme than others just like our two major parties.

this line made me chuckle about affirmative action type programs.
Private citizens or companies on the other hand have the right to be stupid and suffer the consequences.

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Post by Gerry » 01/05/11, 8:56 am

bob wrote:The basic conflict is this: Libertarians say government encroaches on their rights. I say individuals will encroach on other individuals' rights without governmental protection.
Ok well take the example you used in the first post Ron Paul (Rand Paul is considered by many to be more of a joke, somebody who only got to where he is because of who his farther is and still not even half as wise). Ron on a regular basis states that the job of governments is to protect the freedoms of it's people, not to take them away (which it what governments currently do).

Now to address your "warlord" claim I really have to understand what you mean by that. As it says right at the start of the video, how did the "warlord" obtain their property and goods? If they acquired it through fair means then they are entitled to protect it. If they acquired it unfairly then under a libertarian government it would be released back to the original owners and said "warlord" might face punishment depending on how the property was acquired.

Your libertarian friends, if not misunderstood or misrepresented, are short sighted. In order to have a libertarian society there are some necessities, such as a police force, needed in order to enforce the rules of such a society. Libertarianism is about getting government out of the things that are none of it's fucking business, not removal of government completely. The term minimising government is use often because the belief is that government current has it's hands in may things it shouldn't and this involvement only ends up hurting the society as a whole, it is not to mean that there is no place for government.
RedRage wrote:There seem to be more than a few different flavors though some more extreme than others just like our two major parties.
I'd say you'd find it impossible to find two republicans who think the same on all issues. Libertarianism or any other movement is not immune from this and if it was then it either would have reached perfection or only consist of mindless sheep all following one leader's ideals without question. So as with any party it matters not just which faction they belong to but also their own personal ideals and interpretation of the ideals of the faction. I have yet to see somebody beat Ron Paul in a political debate. Often his debates will end with the other side sticking to their side of things but admitting that he does make good points. His logic so far has been pretty fucking amazing, so if there was to be a libertarian leader of any country, so far I would vote for him and certainly not for Bob's libertarian friends. :)
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Post by bob » 01/05/11, 11:27 pm

I'll get back to this--thinking out my answer
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Post by RedRage » 01/06/11, 12:31 am

Gerry wrote:
RedRage wrote:There seem to be more than a few different flavors though some more extreme than others just like our two major parties.
I'd say you'd find it impossible to find two republicans who think the same on all issues. Libertarianism or any other movement is not immune from this and if it was then it either would have reached perfection or only consist of mindless sheep all following one leader's ideals without question. So as with any party it matters not just which faction they belong to but also their own personal ideals and interpretation of the ideals of the faction....
That is pretty much it. Thanks Gerry.

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Post by Don_U » 01/06/11, 11:49 am

Dude, there is no such thing as FAIR! Really?

Gerry said:
"If they acquired it unfairly then under a libertarian government it would be released back to the original owners and said "warlord" might face punishment depending on how the property was acquired."

Our government used to do this with such things as anti trust laws and regulation. Now, thanks to deregulation
of this and that the republic and it's people suffer greatly at the hands of economic warlords.

Libertarianism like communism relies on a dream that everyone is going to play fair.
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Post by RedRage » 01/07/11, 5:42 am

17. Won't these ideas work only if everybody is good?

You don't have to believe people are always good for freedom to work.
Most people, most of the time, deal with each other on the libertarian
premise of respect for the rights of others. You don't want to be
pushed around or to push your neighbors around. You don't steal, cheat
or mug people. Very few among us commit all the crime. Society would
collapse if most people were evil most of the time.

If people are basically evil, the last thing you'd want is a big
government staffed by those evil folks exercising control over you.
[1] -- David Bergland


Don_U wrote:Libertarianism like communism relies on a dream that everyone is going to play fair.


Here is a place where it falls apart. Most people aren't bad they're not going to break the rules assuming they are reasonable. Don't steal, kill, etc.

But if i am reading Don correctly, It only takes one smart bad guy to throw the system out of wack. I think this part is pretty much standard in any type of society though. But in a libertarian society it seems to me the results could be more catastrophic. (i'm far from an expert on this though)

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Post by Gerry » 01/07/11, 11:18 am

Don_U wrote:Libertarianism like communism relies on a dream that everyone is going to play fair.
Absolutely not, those who choose to be part of the society (which might be an implied choice if they take services and live within it), just like in any other society are punished if they do not follow it's rules. In a libertarian society the person who committed the crime would probably have to pay restitution to all victims of the crime, along with the cost of their trial. If they refused they would be incarcerated and forced to work of their debts, as well as the costs of their incarceration, so no doubt they would probably choose the former. For more serious crimes they may be incarcerated regardless of weather they wish to be or not. I don't see much difference from the current system except perhaps even more accountability for criminal action and more assistance for the victims of crimes.
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