Rehab

Almost anything goes -- politics of tech, humor, the internet.... Looks like we're gonna be here for a while....
Gerry
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Post by Gerry » 10/07/10, 6:05 pm

If we are going to translate this into modern english, then lets go a little more official shall we... this was the top hit for a modern version of the bible:

http://ebible.org/web/Exodus.htm#C21V7
21:7 “If a man sells his daughter to be a female servant, she shall not go out as the male servants do. 21:8 If she doesn’t please her master, who has married her to himself, then he shall let her be redeemed. He shall have no right to sell her to a foreign people, since he has dealt deceitfully with her. 21:9 If he marries her to his son, he shall deal with her as a daughter. 21:10 If he takes another wife to himself, he shall not diminish her food, her clothing, and her marital rights. 21:11 If he doesn’t do these three things for her, she may go free without paying any money.
God: Hey Moses, listen. Totally my bad, not your fault, but I completely forgot to include "No slavery" in the commandments.
Moses: Ah, shit! Don't tell me I have to re-do them!
God: Na, it's cool, it's cool! We couldn't have eleven commandments anyway, that shit just wouldn't sell. But don't worry, I've already got an idea. You just need to add in a bit to Exodus so people don't think we are totally pro slavery.
Moses: Well did you want me to just say "No slavery" in there? That mi...
God: No way! The people would totally rebel then. Let them keep slaves and sell their daughters, but you know just make sure the slaves have some rights.
Moses: Such as....?
God: You know, make sure she has food and clothing provided and if not then she shouldn't have to pay to be released.
Moses: Sounds fair enough. That it?
God: Sure, if I think of anything else I'll let you know. L8r
Moses: No probs. L8r


Look I could be wrong on this. There could be an all knowing and seeing god out there. And this god could be behind these bibles read by people. But it sure as heck doesn't seem likely to me, especially given much of the content in the ones I've read. But I know I'm not going to change anybody's mind here, I'm just addressing the "Gerry, reconsider the whole God thing" comment.... actually.....

SOD, reconsider the whole no god thing. For one thing, it means you no longer have that ulterior motive of wanting to get into heaven every time you do good or fear of going to hell if you don't. You are helping others or saving cats just because you want to and there will be no god there to psychologically pat you on the back.

You will also never again say "why me?" because you now realise bad things don't care if you are a good person or not. In the same way you will realise why good things don't just happen to good people. You will realise that there is no connection between these things because there is nobody overseeing it. This will free you from superstitious thoughts and allow you to focus on the things you should change yourself instead or relying on an invisible sky daddy who isn't actually there.
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Post by bob » 10/07/10, 8:58 pm

My thoughts are these: we can't really argue in a reasonable manner for or against the existence of God. We just don't have a good enough grip of the subject. Which is not to say you can't believe there is (or isn't) a God, but either way, your belief is not well supported by evidence.
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Post by Gerry » 10/07/10, 10:41 pm

bob wrote:My thoughts are these: we can't really argue in a reasonable manner for or against the existence of God. We just don't have a good enough grip of the subject. Which is not to say you can't believe there is (or isn't) a God, but either way, your belief is not well supported by evidence.
Well to paraphrase the Great James Randi. I can't prove that there isn't a flying reindeer. What would the proof be? I could bring them all to the top of the empire state building and start pushing them off one by one, but it wouldn't be a very pleasant test and how would I know I'd found every reindeer in the world? And then even after I've pushed the last one off, how do I know that none of them could fly just because they are dead at the bottom. Maybe they couldn't fly on that day, maybe the wind wasn't right, or worse still maybe they simply chose not to fly. You on the other hand could show me one flying reindeer and it would be pretty obvious that flying reindeer do exist.

So yes, I am not aware of any evidence that could ever prove that there is no god... or flying reindeer.
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Post by bob » 10/07/10, 11:27 pm

So yes, I am not aware of any evidence that could ever prove that there is no god... or flying reindeer.

The issue goes beyond that. As I said, "We don't even have a grip on the problem." We don't even know what to prove to exist. For example, can you discover the color red without eyes? I doubt it. (Let's not get bogged down in indirect ways to discover red, etc. The same principle applies.)
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Post by Don_U » 10/07/10, 11:52 pm

no pun, OMG. Good luck with yourself dude.

I don't have to account for the good or bad I do.
It has been taken care of for me. The point to my comment was just be still and listen.

@Bob even though the ability to experience is not there the faith to know it exists is ever present.
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Post by bob » 10/08/10, 1:34 am

Faith is, by definition, a belief in that which is unproven. As Kierkegaard says, it's irrational. Which is fine. I think faith is a good thing. But let's not think we can have a reasonable argument about God. One of the most interesting books I've ever read was "Fear and Trembling/The Sickness Unto Death," by Soren Kierkegaard. Which deals with the question of faith. Or if you don't want to, here's a wikipedia article on the "Leap of Faith":

"A leap of faith, in its most commonly used meaning, is the act of believing in or accepting something intangible or unprovable, or without empirical evidence.[1] .... The implication of taking a leap of faith can, depending on the context, carry positive or negative connotations, as some feel it is a virtue to be able to believe in something without evidence while others feel it is foolishness. It is a hotly contested theological and philosophical concept. For instance, the association with "blind faith" and religion is disputed by those with deistic principles that argue reason and logic, rather than revelation or tradition, should be the basis of belief in God."


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_of_faith
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Post by Gerry » 10/08/10, 7:27 pm

bob wrote:Faith is, by definition, a belief in that which is unproven. As Kierkegaard says, it's irrational. Which is fine. I think faith is a good thing. But let's not think we can have a reasonable argument about God. One of the most interesting books I've ever read was "Fear and Trembling/The Sickness Unto Death," by Soren Kierkegaard. Which deals with the question of faith. Or if you don't want to, here's a wikipedia article on the "Leap of Faith":

"A leap of faith, in its most commonly used meaning, is the act of believing in or accepting something intangible or unprovable, or without empirical evidence.[1] .... The implication of taking a leap of faith can, depending on the context, carry positive or negative connotations, as some feel it is a virtue to be able to believe in something without evidence while others feel it is foolishness. It is a hotly contested theological and philosophical concept. For instance, the association with "blind faith" and religion is disputed by those with deistic principles that argue reason and logic, rather than revelation or tradition, should be the basis of belief in God."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leap_of_faith
I don't disagree with you on much of that Bob. I "had it" for a long time, so I get the idea and I remember the story that initially implanted the idea that faith was a good thing.

As a child in school I was told a dramatised version of the Doubting Thomas story. The story was similar to http://www.leaderu.com/theology/doubting_thomas.html but with Thomas made out to look even worse. It was made very clear that Thomas was a bad man, who became good when he learnt to have faith.

This was of course backed up by the guy who tried to walk on water with Jesus but almost drown because he didn't have faith and God's continuous instance that faith is the only way you are getting into heaven, to name just a few examples.

I was indeed completely pro-faith for a great deal of my life.
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Post by bob » 10/08/10, 7:47 pm

God's continuous instance that faith is the only way you are getting into heaven
I thought you were Catholic, Gerry. You do know that there is another view? Traditionally, fundamentalists have insisted on faith, while Catholics have taken the view that good works will get you there too. Now that's a very simple statement of the controversy--add another layer and some Catholics assert that good works will gain you the gift of faith, while fundamentalists assert that faith frees you to perform good works, and on it goes....

Nevertheless, Sod and Gerry, as previously, I say the whole argument's a bust in the sense that either of you believe you can have a reasonable argument about it. It's what I might term an "idiolectic subject." I'm making up that term, based on the linguistic term, "idiolect" -- which means, loosely, or rather can mean, a personal language. An unshared language. -- "personal only", incapable of communication with others.
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Post by Gerry » 10/09/10, 10:18 pm

bob wrote:I thought you were Catholic, Gerry.
Ah yes I indeed was, but my discussion was with Don_U who based on his geographic location, I'm guessing isn't. Although Detroit is right on the cusp of a roman Catholic region (or at least in 2002 anyway):
http://www.mapsorama.com/maps/world/map ... igions.gif
You do know that there is another view? Traditionally, fundamentalists have insisted on faith, while Catholics have taken the view that good works will get you there too.
Unless you've blasphemed the "Holy Spirit" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_sin, which I do on occasion for people who say I'll still go to the heaven they believe in instead of just dying and my life ending there.
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Post by bob » 10/10/10, 1:34 am

As usual, you've hit on a subject that I find of intense interest, Gerry. One I've spent some time thinking about.

My understanding has always been that the only unforgivable sin is to believe that one has committed an unforgivable sin, since that belief prevents one from believing in forgiveness--kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy. b

Further, I always thought that believing any sin was unforgivable was a form of heresy (according to the Catholic Church, I thought), for obvious reasons -- To believe such is a denial of God's infinite mercy. Hence it fits right into blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (I think): "According to the Catholic Catechism, there are no limits to the mercy of God, but anyone who deliberately refuses to accept his mercy by repenting, rejects the forgiveness of his sins and the salvation offered by the Holy Spirit. Such hardness of heart can lead to final impenitence and eternal loss.[1]"

There is a great deal of quibbling to be done over these matters. I was introduced to them in a novel: "The Heart of the Matter" by Graham Green. (I recommend all of Graham Green's works. But don't start with this one--start with The Power and The Glory, about a "bad priest") Here's a quoted passage dealing with unforgivable sin.

http://books.google.com/books?id=A8XE0X ... &q&f=false
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Post by bob » 10/12/10, 6:57 pm

what, have I lost you?
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Post by Gerry » 10/16/10, 3:10 am

bob wrote:what, have I lost you?
Sorry dude, life is a bit on the stressful side atm so haven't had time to enjoy stuff I normally do.

Are you saying there is only one way to blaspheme the holy spirit?

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/blaspheme
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Post by bob » 10/16/10, 8:18 pm

By pointing to those definitions, I think you may be taking the term "blaspheme" too literally. Yes, the term normally means to curse god, but there may be deeper and more profound ways to do this than by words, look back at your wikipedia article: "blasphemy against the Holy Spirit... this phrase is rarely taken to have its literal meaning. Some sins that are frequently considered eternal include deliberate rejection of the mercy of God...."

Graham Greene suggests that despair is the unforgivable sin because to fail to hope for salvation, to believe it is unavailable, is akin to rejecting it. Despair, in his view, is the opposite of hope. Thus, to lose hope of salvation is despair. And thus, to draw it back to my point, to despair (lose hope) is to believe that one has committed an unforgivable sin, since that belief prevents one from believing in forgiveness.

Some of this is wordplay, but I think you can derive my point.

Don, where have you gone? I'd have thought you'd be in the thick of this.
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Post by Gerry » 10/17/10, 4:47 am

bob wrote:By pointing to those definitions, I think you may be taking the term "blaspheme" too literally. Yes, the term normally means to curse god, but there may be deeper and more profound ways to do this than by words
Does this exclude the more traditional ways? This seems more like wishful thinking than something which is said in the bible.
bob wrote:Graham Greene suggests that despair is the unforgivable sin because to fail to hope for salvation, to believe it is unavailable, is akin to rejecting it. Despair, in his view, is the opposite of hope. Thus, to lose hope of salvation is despair. And thus, to draw it back to my point, to despair (lose hope) is to believe that one has committed an unforgivable sin, since that belief prevents one from believing in forgiveness.
I'm assuming here you mean "God's forgiveness" instead of just any old sort of forgiveness. Again I would say that Graham Greene's words are not those of the bible and seem to be an idealized modern Christian version.
bob wrote:Don, where have you gone? I'd have thought you'd be in the thick of this.
Didn't you see? He wished me luck with my godlessness and chose not to no longer dignify my arguments against religion any longer. Fair enough really as I'm openly dissing something I imagine he believes in very strongly. Better than the reactions of some people in some other religions when you insult their god.
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Post by bob » 10/18/10, 8:12 pm

I guess you could call my view logical (but surely not legalistic?), but here's another view, quite Biblical:


http://www.ccef.org/unpardonable-sin
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